The Engineering Leader

Alex Karp on the Role of the Engineering Manager

March 27, 2022 Steve Westgarth Season 1 Episode 9
The Engineering Leader
Alex Karp on the Role of the Engineering Manager
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode Alex Karp, an Engineering Manager at Twitter, discusses the role of the Engineering Manager and the importance of valuing difference within Engineering teams.

During the discussion we explore how we as leaders have the power to invest in our people and the benefits that this investment drives in the organisations that we work within.

Steve Westgarth:

My name is Steve Westgarth. And this is the engineering leader. Let me tell you a secret, you also write bad code. If you disagree, you may as well switch off. Joining me today on the engineering leader is Alex Karp, an engineering manager working at Twitter, and the author of the book running start, which is due to be published later this year. Alex, thank you so much for joining me on the engineering leader today. Before we start, can I just confirm that you also write bad code?

Alex Karp:

Oh, I write terrible code. My problem is that I always think about the people who are reading my code. And so I over engineer the problem and write some truly terrible as a result. But actually thinking about the people who

Steve Westgarth:

read your code is a good thing, right? It's all about maintainability. And making sure the code is is going to be okay in six months or 12 months time. And you can still use it. So that's a great thing, right?

Alex Karp:

Yes, but maintainability it with maintainability, I think it's important to have some sort of a timeline in mind, like, you want to write something that'll be maintainable for the next year, maybe two, if you're trying to write something that will be perfect till the end of time. That's where I get into trouble. I

Steve Westgarth:

totally get it, I understand where you're coming from. So you currently have what could easily be described as the dream job, you work for a huge organisation, you work for Twitter, you're one of the largest social networking sites in the world. I mean, tell you what that tell me what that feels like.

Alex Karp:

It's been really fascinating. So I joined Twitter, right at the very, very beginning of the pandemic. And so it felt, you know, like the right place to be because, you know, at that time, we were still figuring out how do we still interact with one another, you know, despite not being able to see each other in person. And so particularly for, you know, from my team at Twitter, where we handle a lot of the media related features, or are built off of our media library, basically. So it felt it felt really important at the time to have, or to give people access to very rich, accessible performance media experiences. And, you know, over the last two years, it seems like that's gotten only more important, especially, you know, right around now with things like Ukraine, and Palestine and Afghanistan, and like, you know, just being able to see what's going on in these regions, I think is of huge value to both to both the people in those regions, but also to us who are kind of a little further removed from that.

Steve Westgarth:

So you mentioned the pandemic, and you're like, every organisation, you know, kind of came totally out of left field. Everybody had to respond very, very quickly. And I guess that was no different than Twitter. What sort of things did you need to do on Twitter in order to, to respond to such a global event labour?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, so Twitter was, Twitter was a little lucky and that we were already trying to plan out how to decentralise our workforce, and, you know, really globalise, the pandemic just kind of shoved us in that direction a little faster. So, you know, we we already had a pretty, pretty good culture of working across many different offices all across all around the world. So, you know, managing time zones and that sort of thing. And then, to me, at least, going to fully remote was the easier part of it. In terms of, you know, yes, we all have, you know, we've we've all got these, these video chats that we that we attend. I mean, there are definitely issues in terms of how do you have impromptu conversations with people or like, everything feels incredibly transactional, if you have to, you know, specify a meeting time and, you know, block out time and that sort of thing. But I feel like, you know, that definitely, that came more naturally to in contrast to the problem that we're trying to solve for now, which is, you know, now we live in this world where we're in a hybrid model. So we have some people who want to come back to the office, some people you know, and you know, of those people. They want to come for for varying amounts of time, and then we have some people who want to work from home full time still. So trying to figure out exactly, you know, how do we, how do we, for the people who are in the office still give those people the benefits of being in the office, while including people who are, you know, who are working from home? And, you know, really making them feel like they're a part of everything? And

Steve Westgarth:

then what about from a user perspective? So, you know, did people's usage of Twitter change drastically during the pandemic? On carry on business as usual?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I mean, so if I recall correctly, there was there was a big jump in Twitter usage, particularly at the beginning of the pandemic, while everybody was trying to figure everything out. A, I don't know, how how much that's, that's held out. I think it's calmed down a little bit since. But there was definitely a huge spike at the beginning.

Steve Westgarth:

Interesting. And I know, obviously, as an engineering leader within Twitter, so you're an engineering manager. And I noticed on your, on your Twitter and on your LinkedIn, you evangelise a lot about getting and finding the right jobs for engineers, and also helping engineers to get into work. I mean, tell me, from your perspective, why why are you passionate about this space?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I'm, I'm really annoying about that. So So yeah, I mean, for me, it's just, it's a combination of things. It's hearing from other people about their experiences with other companies, other managers. And just kind of like hearing, hearing the difficult experiences that they've had, for one reason or another, that combined with, you know, my own experiences, and, you know, and, and particularly as a manager, you know, realising how important finding that right fit is. And really how that can be the difference between really loving your job and having a career that grows and fulfils you, or really hating your job, not really, not really getting anywhere, in terms of promotions, like that sort of thing. And, you know, really thinking that is what software development is like. Which it definitely isn't, or shouldn't be,

Steve Westgarth:

I guess very much depends on the company that you work for. And I mean, that's step Yeah. You're one of the things where we're trying to do as part of the the engineering leader podcast, it's about sharing your best practice in that space, and how to really develop engineers and to develop engineering teams. So I guess you You've obviously went down an engineering manager track and I guess in engineers careers, you often hear about people talking about technical tracks versus management tracks. Wonder yo, do you have a perspective on that? I mean, you know, is that a thing is that should be so that'd be a thing. And you know, what, why, and where did you come to your own decisions about where you wanted to go on your own career?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, no, it's definitely a thing, I think more and more companies are actually coming up with a more robust engineering track, that is not managerial. And I definitely think that it should be, you know, part of the problem that we have, if there is just one track that, you know, at a certain point you go into management is not everybody's suited for management, not everybody wants to be a manager like. And so the problem is, you get to, you get to a point where you're looking at your engineers, and you're like, Oh, yes, you are the best at engineering, I'm going to make you a manager. And but like, the skill sets are just completely different. And so that, I think, is also what leads to a lot of these situations where, you know, people have managers who aren't you for one reason or another aren't aren't working in their best interest aren't, don't really have the, the knowledge and experience to actually support them? And, you know, and that really shows and so, so I think that it's important for there to be, you know, if you want to continue to grow on the technical side, a path forward that allows you to take on larger and larger scopes, but, you know, doesn't require you to take on, take on people management. There is

Steve Westgarth:

something about though engineers even if they are, you're more technical and you're potentially you don't want to go out and people management routes. There is definitely something about engineers and respecting your managers who do have a technical background and that may be coming From your and engineering background themselves? I don't know if you have any views on that.

Alex Karp:

No, absolutely. I mean, I definitely think that as you know, as a manager who has, who has technical background, you, you, there's, there's a lot of, I think, implicit, implicit respect that comes that comes from that. And so I'm not necessarily saying that we shouldn't turn our, you know, our best engineers into into managers. But I do think that we need to be open and honest with them about, you know, what manage what management is about, give them the tools that they need to really learn about it. And also give them you know, give them an exit if, if they, they try it out, and decide that it's not for them. So, so really, really just avoiding the, the age old, shoving people into into management, I think makes a huge difference.

Steve Westgarth:

I think you make some really great points about there being a totally different skill set. And you're right, yeah, I know of some engineers that should never, ever be allowed to manage people because they just haven't got that skill set. And I also know of some engineering managers and engineering leaders who want other people management track that aren't great coders. And I think that's cool, too. But I think it's about making sure we play to people's strengths and making sure that you've got the right people on the pitch in order to get the job done. While you're talking to,

Alex Karp:

ya know, exactly.

Steve Westgarth:

So maybe exploring, you know, something about your companies that people work for, right. So, you know, again, I've read on your Twitter and on your, on your blog. And so the things you've been evangelising about, you know, how, how should people choose the company that they want to choose to work for? And that's a really interesting decision, you know, so for me personally, I've recently taken the decision to switch jobs, right, and I've moved to a new company. And that's a huge decision to make that decision to invest so much of your life into an organisation. What do you think people should be looking for in companies that they want to join? From an engineering perspective?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, no, it's a really scary decision, I think, to make a lot of the time because you're kind of committed yourself, at least for for a small a small period of time to to this company, almost sight unseen. But yeah, no, I think there's, there's a few different things that that go into that, I think, on the one hand, you know, at the, at the company, or Yeah, at the company level, you want to make sure that you have a company that is working on a project that is working on product or products that you're interested in, you know, that suit, suit your background, and, and that sort of thing. But I also think that it's important to really think critically about the team that you'd be working with, you're the person who would be your manager, and just kind of the organisation in general. And that's a great way to, or it's a great use of of the time, at the end of those interviews, where, where, you know, where your interviewer asks you, if you have any questions about, about the company, like that sort of thing. A lot of people don't use that time as effectively as they could. And that's a great time to try to learn more about these things. Because really, if you know, if you're not just looking for the first job that comes to you, if you're really looking for something that that you'll be happy with, and that'll allow you to succeed, you know, it's important to make sure that you have that environment. And so asking those questions, I think it's really important.

Steve Westgarth:

I think you're right, I mean, you know, I know you're in the US but I mean, in the UK, the software engineering market, your for jobs, kilometres incredibly hot, and there are so many jobs. And the reality is that most software engineers looking for a job, if they get the right contact or threat recruitment companies can have a job within a few days in reality. But there's a very clear difference between getting a job and getting the job. And as you say, you're making sure that you've got a job that you're happy with and you will be fulfilled with them and actually your aligns with your values and your direction of travel and where you want to go to as an individual. Do you think do you think companies themselves as part of their recruitment processes have a responsibility to help their prospective candidates to make sure that they are selecting their company for the right reasons?

Alex Karp:

I so it's a complex answer. I do think that they have a responsibility to you know, to make sure that people are, you know, signing on to to a job that is what they expect it to be. But I mean, I think even even if you even if you completely ignore whatever responsibility The company has to has to the person, as sometimes companies do, really talking about the culture of the company, and, and, and that sort of thing can be a really good selling point to, you know, to get more engineers interested. So, you know, if you, even if you look at it from that perspective of, you know, the market is really hot, we're trying to, we're trying to get as many engineers in as we possibly can, I think that being, you know, really open and honest about, about what you think the culture of the company is, can help, you know, put a company over the top of maybe some other companies that, that are really thinking about that

Steve Westgarth:

there is something unknown about being deliberate about culture, I mean, I guess, probably the most talked about your culture in an engineering community is probably the Netflix example, with their publication of, for example, their culture deck that they talk to. And I think culture is definitely something which is deliberate that companies need to face into to create the culture that they want to create a to your created your with, with your in a deliberate way with input from all of the employees within the organisation. So we we collectively do it together? How was that approach to Twitter?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, um, so I mean, I can, I can really talk about it, you know, at the at the kind of bottom level from, from my perspective, on my team, I completely agree that culture is something that you deliberately create, it's also something that isn't free and has to be maintained. It's incredibly easy for even the best, the best of work cultures to become incredibly toxic, very quickly. So for me, it's, it's, it's about things like, making sure there is psychological safety with the team, I, you know, I want to make sure that they feel comfortable talking to one another, talking to me, giving feedback, you know, all of these sorts of things I want people to be comfortable speaking up. And then, and then really, I think it's yeah, it's, I suppose, from my, from my perspective, as a manager, it's really making sure that I that I have the chance to develop a rapport with the people on my team, help them develop rapport with other people on the teams. To get to really, really, truly enable that. I think there is an aspect of, you know, trying to lead by example, when it comes to, you know, things like diversity and inclusion, and equity. And so like that, really, that really jumps into play when we are thinking about things like hiring or promotions, or that sort of thing.

Steve Westgarth:

But I know, diversity inclusion is something which you champion a lot. And why do you think it's important to equip engineers with different skills and backgrounds?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I mean, the simple fact is that I believe that the best products are made by groups of people, really diverse groups of people. And you know, when you think about it, it's that it's because every, every person with a different background is going to have a different way of looking at things, a different way of thinking about things will have, you know, will have a different perspective, that, you know, you don't necessarily get if a team is very homogenous. So like, you know, if you have a team that's very homogenous, you tend to get that's really how you end up in situations where you have, for instance, UX that makes no sense to anybody except for the people that wrote it. Or these sorts of things. It's really the idea that the, the more of the gamut that you span in terms of diversity and in terms of all the different axes of diversity, the just the, the more edge cases you'll start to think about the better. And yeah, just just the more thoughtful in general the products that you put out will be and if if if nothing else, you know, like we said, it is a very hot market and so we need to be bringing everybody in I'm leaving no, no stone left unturned.

Steve Westgarth:

We were talking on the engineering leader to Michelle Kearns, who was head of it in boots Island. And we were talking about the same concept. And we were talking about the concept of groupthink your way, if you get a bunch of people from the same background and the same experience, you've put them in a room together, they're much more likely to come to the same decision and the same, the same outcome. Whereas actually bringing together a group of people that have come from a range of different backgrounds, you get a much, much richer breadth of ideas, which actually leads to much richer product development and, you know, a much richer idea set, which I guess is exactly what you're saying in that space.

Alex Karp:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Steve Westgarth:

And I guess you're related to that, in some ways, you're, I've always noticed that you've been really candid about talking about the fact that you're autistic. I sense a degree of pride in that, that you've taken your autism, how has that helped your own career?

Alex Karp:

Oh, let's see. Um, I mean, it's, it's definitely been interesting for my career. And so just for just for background, I, I am a late diagnosed autistic person, I was only formally diagnosed last year, but I had very strong suspicions for the past several years. And so yeah, it's been very, very interesting. For me, I think part of it, I think one thing that is both beneficial, and a real pain to me, and those around me, is that there are some things I think, particularly when it comes to things like diversity and inclusion, that I see as very black and white. And that I, you know, and, you know, in a way that allows me to kind of cut through, cut through this idea that, Oh, you know, should we be doing this, like it, maybe it's going to be difficult, and, you know, and it really helps me to very, very much focus in on, this is what we should be doing, because it's the right thing to do. So, so there's that. But it also, you know, it very much as, as had its drawbacks, and, you know, really, the pandemic has brought that to light, most for me, because as an autistic person I struggle with, you know, what they call executive function. So basically, by my ability to keep track of things, get things done, like that sort of thing, the, the best description of that I've found is it's, I mean, so it's really, it's this idea that, there's like two steps, like, I think of the thing that needs to get done, and then I do that thing. But, you know, as a person with executive dysfunction, it's almost like there's, there's a wall or a big hurdle in between those two steps. And so it can be very difficult for me to go from, hey, I need to do this thing to, yes, let's do this thing. So and So really, what I found was that I was I was using anxiety to, to mask that. So you know, I would have this list of things that I do and all the time, I'd be like, Have you heard this, have you done that, you know, just really just constantly looping through my mind, as a way of making sure that I remembered everything, for instance, and, you know, during the pandemic, that all kind of filled up fell apart. Because, I don't know, I don't know if you noticed, but you know, everything has been kind of anxiety ridden over the last two years. And so I got to a point where just everyday life was filling up my, you know, my capacity in terms of anxiety, and there was just nothing left for me to use as a crutch. So that's been a really interesting process in terms of learning how to, how to help myself, you know, with that executive dysfunction, without, you know, borrowing for anxiety.

Steve Westgarth:

And I think it's, it's really interesting from the things you share there becoming that the pandemic has been such an unprecedented event that really has pushed everybody you're in in incredible ways, you will never have imagined your price in terms of anxiety in terms of really finding out how we respond in different situations. And I guess that's exactly what you're describing there. You know, as an autistic person, you're how you how you cope with and what your coping mechanism in some of those some of those things. And, you know, for me, it's about a general awareness, you're within any organisation, about what an individual needs in order to be as productive and as effective as they can be you and what we can make in order to help that happen. I mean, the many listeners to the podcast will either know or work with people who are autistic. Is there anything that employers or managers can do to help people that maybe have autism, you know, to be more successful?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, they say I think it's one in 69 People are autistic. And, you know, the, the the belief is that it's probably even even more prevalent than that, because it's just, it's just so under diagnosed. But yeah, I think I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head where it's, it's really all about individualised individualising. Particular, particularly as, as managers. But also even if you're talking about appear, like individualising, how you work with people, like if you can't, you can't just automatically assume that the way that you work with Person A is going to be the way that works best to work with Person B. And so I think there is an amount of, you know, learning about how each person works best, what, what challenges they might have, like that sort of thing. And really, really, really understanding, I guess, what is reasonable, especially in terms of like, expectations, and everything like that, because I think I think the problem that a lot of a lot of companies get into is just this idea that like, you know, we set the bar at, you know, at a certain level, and then you know, yes, we offer accommodations. And, you know, you can use those accommodations to get you up to that bar, but it's not, it's it's never that simple. And, and, you know, performance, and learning and everything is never that kind of straightforward journey, you know, it's a journey that goes backwards and forwards and sideways and sideways, and you know, every which way. And so, by really acknowledging that, I think that not only helps people like me who are autistic, but it helps everybody neurotypicals and people who are neurodivergent alike, because it allows them to get the support that they specifically need, and not necessarily just the support that is typically offered to people.

Steve Westgarth:

Do you think attitudes in the world are changing towards difference?

Alex Karp:

Yes, and no. So I would I say I say yes, in the micro sense, in terms of, you know, I, I definitely see there being difference, when it comes to people interacting with one another being more accepting, like, and that's, that's the sort of thing, it's a lot easier, like, if you're interacting on a regular basis with somebody who's different than you, you know, you're, you're definitely get more comfortable with that over time. And hopefully, that hopefully, that makes you more comfortable in the more general sense. On the macro level at at things like companies and the tech industry as a whole. I don't think so, to be honest, I think that there has been a lot of effort towards, you know, things like diversity, inclusion, equity in the tech industry, but I think the problem is that in order to really, in order to really get there, there's a lot of hard work that needs to get done. And, and a lot of that is it revolves around you know, completely revamping how you hire people, how you retain people, how you grow people, and, you know, because, like, so much of, of the inequity when it comes to when it comes to tech is that it's, you know, it's, it's built into the system. And, you know, whether or not people people realise that, you know, that's, that's what's going on. And so, there is no shortcut, you know, in my opinion, at least, to, to getting to to a healthier point, aside from you know, really taking things apart and being very intentional as you put things back together. And I think there's a lot of companies out there right now trying to trying to, you know, hire hire more diverse group of people. But they, I think, I believe that they'll find that the people that they're hiring will probably be leaving at a higher rate than then they're more over represented majority hires just because, you know, they spend so much time focusing on getting people in the door, but then do nothing to actually make them feel comfortable, make them feel safe, make them feel valued, you know, all of all of these things. So, so yeah, I I still have a whole lot of hope that will eventually get to a point where difference will be, will be valued, as it should be. But at the moment, at the very highest levels, I don't think we're there yet.

Steve Westgarth:

And that really brings us back around to you as a hiring manager, when you're looking for candidates that maybe want to join your team and you want to bring into the culture that you've created. What do you what do you look for in a candidate?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I mean, it kind of it kind of depends on, on what role I'm trying to fill. But but I'd say in general, I'm looking for people who are willing to learn who are willing to teach, you know, because it doesn't matter if you're the lowest of junior developers, or the highest of principal, or distinguished or, you know, whatever you call it, I think that it's really important to not only be not only be humble enough to learn from others, but to be to be willing to teach others what it is that you know, because, you know, I mean, computer science is one of those fields where, like, there's so much nobody knows everything. And so that's to me, you know, one of the great things there, you know, I'm looking for people that can break down complex ideas and explain them, explain them very carefully. I'm looking for people who, who try to balance, making sure that we're putting out the making sure that we're putting out the right thing with, you know, with, with making sure that we're putting it out on time, if that makes any sense. You know, there's there's a big culture of move fast and break things, I think, within the within the tech industry. But you know, the problem with that is that if you move fast and break things, usually the things that get broken are the people who, you know, perhaps need support most. So, so having somebody who, who understands that I think is is particularly important.

Steve Westgarth:

And then we hear talk companies talking about approaches to hiring great tech talent. So some companies insist on tech tests, or coding interviews or whiteboard exercises, and what's your view on the best way to technically assess a candidate when they

Alex Karp:

assess, I don't think there's one best way to assess a candidate. You know, I there's definitely a lot of hatred towards, towards data structures and algorithms, problems in elite code style problems. And, you know, that's, that's pretty well deserved. You know, the, the ideal interview is something in the ideal interview processes is where you take an action, take a good look at the role that you're trying to hire for, figure out what it is that you want it, you know, you would want that person to be doing on a on a regular basis, and then design an interview that tests those skills specifically. And so you can do that too, to create some, some actually pretty, pretty relevant interviews, like I remember when I was when I was at Wayfair, one of the things that we did was we revamped the phone screen process from you know, what was basically, we had to fire up a coder pad and have people work on some, some ridiculous, ridiculous algorithm problem that, you know, as a mobile engineer, they would, they were never be working, working with that on the scale that, you know, that sort of algorithms problem might be useful. And so we took that, and we turned it into, we would give the candidates a project in Inex code, and then we would share their screen, have them work through that actual implementation of an iOS app. So something that's like very, very relevant to the work that they would be doing as an iOS developer. And, you know, trying to create an environment that very much matches what you know, what they would have things like, you know, access to Google things like, you know, being able to ask your interviewer questions, like, you know, basically like having somebody to bounce ideas off of as you're, as you're coming up with a solution. So that's something that I think I think can work really well. And that's just a good example of actually thinking about what it is that you're looking for. And you know, how how you can how you can get the signal signal with that. And actually, the the added benefit of that was that the candidates that we got in into the final interview round, were doing significantly better than the ones prior because we would get people We were very strong in algorithms, and then we would, you know, give them an iOS problem to work on during the final interview, and it was painfully clear that they had little experience doing iOS development. You know, they were just struggling, even using Xcode like that, that level of, of, of lack of familiarity. So, you know, so it was helpful in that regard, it was helpful in terms of we, we got rid of a significant amount of bias towards people with CS degrees, people are really strong in algorithms, which again, like wasn't, wasn't at all a day to day focus for for what we were looking for. But I think I think part of part of it, too, is that the, there is no one way of doing it. And actually, recently, I've come to the conclusion that maybe the best way is to almost like, almost like a choose your own adventure sort of book. You know, like, if we identify, these are the skills that a person needs to be able to demonstrate. And then we have like, a few different ways of demonstrating that, you know, some people really do like the algorithms interviews, and, you know, if they do that, more power to them, some people like a more hands on problem where they're working on a specific project real time, some people really like take home projects, because it gives them time to focus without anybody looking over their shoulder. Honestly, you could even you can even take it as far as if somebody has, like a project in GitHub, and you know, you can have a discussion about about the architecture and the implementation and have them walk you through it. I think there, there's just there's so many different types of engineers and like so many different ways that people can really show that they have strong technical knowledge that trying to shoehorn into that into one specific type of interview, even if it's a particularly well designed interview, is maybe not the best.

Steve Westgarth:

I really liked that idea. I mean, actually, as recently, as yesterday, I was having a conversation with my leadership team talking around how we should approach this exact problem. And we've kind of landed on a pair programming type exercise. Okay, then. And actually, there's some real world pair programming with an engineer. And the logic of that is, you're what's the point of creating an artificial situation with some sort of test, you want somebody to actually come in and demonstrate your what they would do in the real world. And that means, as you said, access to Google access to the tools they would have in the real world, let's solve a real problem. But the conversation we had when exactly and that we've talked about that to say, you know, not everybody responds well, and that sort of situation. And I love that sort of idea about, you know, saying to a candidate, hey, look, you know, we want to get to know you as part of the process, we want to let you get to know us. Why don't you design your interview process, you'll tell us how you want to demonstrate your skills. And that's a brilliant and really insightful idea that we could maybe do something with.

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I mean, I think the the added benefit there is that, you know, the the candidate walks into the interview process, knowing specifically what signals you're looking for, like what skills they you know, they really want to highlight, and, you know, can then on their own, put together like the best, the best way of of showing that which I, which I think, I think would go a long way towards making interviews less stressful. Now,

Steve Westgarth:

it's incredibly powerful. And once we've offered the candidate the job, and we've decided yet what a great match for the company, that candidate turns up on day one and staff so there's this I guess, big pressure on making a good impression, or, you know, landing really well in the organisation. What hints and tips would you have for any engineers that I've listened to this, about how to make a great impression in the organisation that they join?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I think one of the easiest things to do is to is to kind of build trust with the people around you. And I think when people think about making a good first impression and building trust, they think, Oh, I'm going to do something really impressive. Really, really large, really impressive. And then people will, people will respect me. But in reality, it's a lot easier than that. You know, like, in my, in my book I talked about it talked about this idea that building trust doesn't have to, doesn't have to involve really large gestures. When it comes down to it, it's all about setting setting an expectation and then And, you know, achieving that. And so over time, like, as you have more interactions with people where you, you know, set an expectation and you achieve that, that goes a long way towards building that trust that yes, this person, you know, whatever it is that they say they're going to do, they're going to do it. And I think that that goes, that goes a long way.

Steve Westgarth:

Definitely. And I guess once you've got an engineer that's in the organisation, career growth, and progression becomes a really active part of the conversation. And what's been your own approach to handling that within your teams?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, I mean, so. So as a manager, as a manager, the way that I handle career growth, career development is that it's very individual to each each level of of engineer, but it's also very individual to each person. And so a lot of that goes back to really understanding what it is that the person on your team is interested in. I, I personally go a lot along the transparency route of you know, this is, this is what the ladder looks like, this is kind of what each role what each role looks like, and what those responsibilities are. And, you know, this is why you might want to, you know, and like, if we're going, if we're at the point where we're trying to consider, are we saying, Are we staying? Technical? Or are we kind of going down the managerial path, it's, you know, being very, very honest about, about what those paths look like. I mean, I do also think that in terms, in terms of career, career growth and career development, we may be focused a little too much on promotions, particularly at the senior level and above, I think, where I think there's a lot of pressure on senior engineers to, you know, to get promoted beyond that to staff, Principal, whatever, whatever, you know, the role is beyond that at, you know, at their company. And it's not a, it's not a job for everybody, you know, people assume that, that, you know, for instance, like a staff engineer is just a really, really smart senior engineer. But that's it's not the case, it's really all about scope, right? Like, as a C, as a staff engineer, you're not only working with your team, you're starting to work with other teams, try to have impact across multiple teams. And so, so somebody who is, you know, really interested in and working on big technical projects, may be interested in that, and may not be interested in that. And, and because people feel forced into that, they, we, there, there is a tendency to end up with people who are staff engineers, who really, really, you know, really would would be happier as senior engineers. So, you know, there's, there's a lot that I do there, too, in terms of making sure that people really understand, you know, why one person might want to be at the next level, but then also exploring, what else can we do in terms of career growth? And professional developments? Like, can we add depth anywhere? Like, is there anything new, that you know, that they want to learn or anything that they want to learn more in depth, new skills to pick up, you know, that sort of thing, and really driving home the idea that professional growth doesn't necessarily have to be about promotions? Because at a certain point, it can't be.

Steve Westgarth:

I think that one of the challenges we have as an industry is that there is no real definition of what the difference between a junior engineer, a mid level engineer, a senior engineer, a principal or whatever that might be really is. And it's a conversation that I have, you're with a lot of engineers, you're because at the end of the day, we we all write code. So if we're all right, in the same code, you know, what is the difference between somebody who's a junior and somebody who's a senior? And you know, I think there's there's some work to be done as an industry to help people to understand your what behaviours and what skills we expect to see at different levels. And something I think, within individual companies with individual organisations, people have, have spent some time kind of thinking about, but I think that there's something about sharing that more widely and kind of talking about, well, you're for me, you know, the difference between somebody who was a junior engineer and somebody who was a senior engineer, is a senior engineer with maybe looking to mentor others around them and to really kind of help to promote their learning and those sorts of things. When you move up into the principal world, maybe you're you're talking around, you're maybe talking to other teams and kind of you're looking outside of my immediate sphere of influence in how I draw that into kind of what we're doing. So I think there's something around that that definition that as an industry, we could really do some work on, that I think would really help to, to kind of level set and make sure people aren't promoted beyond where maybe they should be working or comfortable working.

Alex Karp:

Yeah, and that's something that I tried to address in my book as well, as you know, I have an entire chapter dedicated to the career ladder and trying to kind of generalise what what that might look like for for a large number of companies. And of course, it's going to be, it's going to be wildly inaccurate for some. But, but what I do is, or at least the way that I think about it as a manager, and the way that I talk about it in the book is that I break, I break the and particularly on the technical side, I break it down into one of three, three areas, there's scope, there's independence, and then there's complexity. So you know, with scope, as you're going from junior to senior, you're talking about talking about having tasks that are very bite sized? Well, you know, well defined, that are given to you going through, you know, having larger tasks that are maybe a little bit more ambiguous to actually being able to be the person who is taking these ambiguous problems, breaking them down into bite sized pieces. And, you know, helping, basically allowing others others to work on that. And then there's independence in terms of, you know, how, how much of my help or have their mentors help, or that sort of thing? Will Will they need it? Obviously, like, nobody's going to be fully independent. I fully expect people to come to me with questions regularly, but like, but it's, but it's looking at how well they function without that, you know, how much they're like how much they're comfortable doing on their own? Before they come, come ask me or somebody else a question. And then lastly, it's, it's about complexity. And so again, it's talking about the size of these projects, where, you know, some things are very, very ambiguous, some things, you know, there are stakeholders that span multiple teams, and there's, you know, organisation that needs to happen communication, like all of these things. And so, you know, over time, that that grows, the expectations there, I think, grow with what's the role?

Steve Westgarth:

And then that's a great segue into your book called The Running Start, which I understand is due to be published later this year. Why don't you tell us about that? What, what's the intention of the book?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, so it's, it's, hopefully, it will hopefully be published by the end of May. But we will see how that goes. The idea behind it is that it's a guide for people who I mean, really, really, it's intended to be a guide for everyone or as many people as possible. One of the things that I was really looking to do was to write a book that was as inclusive and accessible to people as possible, because I mean, a lot of the a lot of the books out there, I feel like are books written by white men for white men? And so as such, they don't they look at it, they look at a very idealised, specific path. Where, you know, honestly, like, there's, it's, it's a lot more complicated than that you have people, I mean, yes, you do have people who are graduating from, from college with their CS degrees, but you have people who have attended boot camps, people who have taught themselves how to programme, people who decided to switch careers, you know, in the, in their 20s 30s 40s 50s. You know, all of these different things, you have people with children, people who take care of parents. And so there's just there's so many different considerations that I think books that a lot of the books that are currently out there, don't really take into consideration. So my goal, you know, when when writing this was to try to include as much of that, as much of that as I could. And so really, the the idea behind the book is that it goes through, really goes through the entire journey. It starts from trying to figure out what companies you want to apply to and how to how to create a network of people, that sort of thing, and then how to actually prepare for an interview and how to negotiate an offer. Then we jump into the first 90 days and really making the most of those 90 A's, then we talk about the next 90 days, which are just as important. And then we, from there, we go into topics like how to effectively use your manager, how to give and receive feedback, what the what career paths look like in the career ladder in general, this idea of creating what I call study groups, you know, groups of like minded people who are in the same sort of situation as you, and are trying to move towards the same goals, and really being able to take advantage of having that collective knowledge. Then we talk about promotions. And finally, a little bit about when it might be time to leave a job. And, you know, looking at the reasons why, why you might want to do that, and how to go about that, you know, reasonable way.

Steve Westgarth:

So this is this is all related to continuous learning and continuous improvement. Why do you think that's so important with an engineering career?

Alex Karp:

I mean, I think it's important in general, but I think it's especially important in software engineering, I mean, I know, at least when I, when I got my, my CS degree, they were very clear with us that, you know, the knowledge that that I got, as part of that degree, would only last me five years, probably less. And so there, there really has to be a degree of continuous continuous learning, you know, on the technical side, but I, I don't think that it should be just limited to the technical side, like, I think, I think we should be learning how to how to best set ourselves up for success and to really create the environments that we that we want to work in. Because I mean, at least for me, that's, that's the difference between being at a job where, you know, things just kind of happened to you, and you go along with it, and being at a job where you feel like you have actual agency over what's going on, and you feel like an actual partner in the product you put out.

Steve Westgarth:

And I know, you know, I get a little sense from you, as you're talking to me, Alex, that you have a real passion for being a really great engineering leader. And really making sure that that your, your great engineering leadership kind of comes through in your practice, and you talk so passionately about that it's really inspirational. And maybe a bit of time for a bit of self reflection, you know, what, in your view, makes a really great engineering leader?

Alex Karp:

Hmm. I think it's a few things, I think, there is definitely an element of compassion that needs to be there, there is an element of really caring about others, particularly about you know, the people that are on your team, I think it's, it's really difficult, if you have a manager that is more self interested, you really don't develop the sort of trust that you you'd really want to see. Like I said, it's, it's a lot of, of listening. Someone once told me that, that managers have managers have two years and one mouth and they should be used them proportionally. And you know, that that advice has never, never led me astray. In terms of really, really listening to people, it has to be somebody who is interested in making space for others to speak, I think a lot of people go into management thinking, Oh, I'm gonna make all the decisions, like that sort of thing. But really, at least in my opinion, like, if I'm making a decision, something's gone wrong. You know, there, there are people who, who are paid to be smarter than me on this team, so like, if I'm, if I'm making a decision on my own, like, that's, that's bad. So, so yeah, I mean, that that was there was a bunch of bunch of random things. But I think those are all all really important. And I mean, for me, it really boils down to like my, my ethos as a as a manager is that if you take care of your team, they'll take care of the rest. And, to be honest, that's worked out really well for me. Over my years as a manager,

Steve Westgarth:

you know, so much of what you're talking about there reminds me of a really famous quote from Steve Jobs, where he said we don't employ smart people to tell them And what to do we employ smart people so that they can tell us what to do. I think so much of what you're saying there really rings true to what Steve said,

Alex Karp:

ya know, my, my favourite part about that is that he, I think he referred, he talks about it in reference to what he calls the Bozo explosion. Which is the idea that a players hire a plus players like they, they want people who are smarter than them, who you know, who kind of pushed them to grow. But then if you hire B players, they hire C players because they want to, they want to feel smarter than the people that they hire, and then the C players hire D players. And that's how you get what he called the Bozo explosion.

Steve Westgarth:

Not Absolutely. And I think you know, so much of what we've talked about is about your what we do in work, right? And how important kind of work is and developing ourselves in developing the people around us. But you're something you're outside of work, because we're how we kind of switch off and how we kind of Yo, relax. I know you're a really skilled piano player. I guess that's one of the ways that you choose to kind of switch off, how do you help others and your team to do the same?

Alex Karp:

Yeah, piano is a great way of, of trying to switch off, especially especially I love playing Beethoven, he's kind of my kindred spirit, he's got a little bit of something for everybody, especially if that something is is anger. But yeah, so I pushing pushing my team to really, truly turn turn themselves off and take time off is, is something that's really important to me, particularly, you know, Twitter being a company that has unlimited paid time off. And, you know, unlimited paid time off being one of those things that gets a really bad reputation. Because oftentimes, it's, it's kind of used as an excuse to, I mean, in practice, it can be in practice, it ends up being that people take less paid time off than they would if you just kind of give them a certain number of days of paid time off. So for me, that I try to be very intentional about about the way that my team takes time off. So I've, in the past, I've actually even used spreadsheets to track who's taking time off and how much time with the intention of basically saying, you know, each quarter, I want you to take a week of time off. In addition to like, whatever company holidays, we have that sort of thing, because you need that time in order to refresh, recharge, that sort of, you know, just like that, and it's the sort of thing that that sounds really weird, having, you know, having your manager implore you to take to take a lot more time off. But at least to me, it, it pays off big dividends in terms of having a team that is functioning at its best, that's happy, you know, that, you know, basically all the things that make engineers happy and productive, I think can be found in terms of making sure that they're taking not only enough PTO, but taking enough PTO regularly, which is, which is why I tried to I tried to set it set kind of minimum quotas by quarter rather than for like, an entire year. And yeah, you know, I also just on a regular basis, encourage people to jump off of slack or you know, whatever, like non answering emails, I try, you know, I try my best to, if, because I'm the sort of person who, if I have an idea, I need to, I need to send it send it off immediately, or I'll forget. So like, you know, really taking advantage of scheduled sender, that sort of thing to really instil this idea that we're not working, we shouldn't work.

Steve Westgarth:

I have a very similar thing, you know, I, I went when I have an idea, I will, I will send the email immediately. And that might be you know, 234 o'clock in the morning, I have a thing that a lot of my email signature would say, I'm really fortunate that I work for a flexible company three or four o'clock in the morning, that's on me, I don't expect you to respond. Something about you're displaying that behaviour that you're modelling the behaviour you can I want you on teams because I would be devastated if someone got an email off me at three in the morning and thought they needed to respond immediately.

Alex Karp:

Yeah, and I think modelling is is is really important when it comes to when it comes to time off as well like I make sure to model on my team taking you know taking a significant amount of time off so that they feel like they have you know they have I don't know if it's cover or what it is but you know, they see somebody else taking all this time off talking about the time off and taking and why. So they feel comfortable going in going and doing that? It's a really difficult job, but I, you know, I push through for my team?

Steve Westgarth:

Absolutely. So bringing the conversation back to the tech industry and maybe expanding more generally, you know, what, I guess we're in a certain place, we've seen, you know, rapid growth and digitization, you know, huge change pandemic, as your, as companies have found themselves moving into, into into new digital areas in places that I don't think anybody would have imagined even 24 months ago. And what do we as a community need to do in order to raise the bar in the next five years? What's going to make tech really great.

Alex Karp:

I mean, not to sound like a broken record, but I but I do think that it comes down to diversity, inclusion, and equity. I think that by bringing a a more diverse range of thoughts into tech, we will have not only better ideas, but more ideas. For you know, even things that nobody, you know, nobody in tech currently would have, would have thought of. And, you know, that's, especially over the next five years, I think, that there's a real need to a real need to make that happen. Because otherwise, we're gonna get to a point where I don't want to say we'll run out of ideas, but the ideas that we come up with will have diminishing returns unless we're really bringing in as wide a range of perspectives and backgrounds as possible. Not to mention, just in terms of in terms of inequity, I think that, you know, bringing more people into tech will have a meaningful impact.

Steve Westgarth:

Alex, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you on the engineering leader today. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to to have a bit of a chat. Personally, I found it incredibly inspiring me listening to you talk about the work you're doing. So really, on behalf of everyone who's listening, thank you very much.

Alex Karp:

Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed it.

Steve Westgarth:

I felt so privileged to talk to Alex today, hearing him discuss how he has overcome challenges like autism and listening to his view on why and how organisations benefit by embracing difference was really inspirational. Alex shared some really interesting views on the best ways to recruit world class engineering teams, but also how we as leaders have the power to invest in our people, and the benefits of this investment drives and the organisations that we work for. You've been listening to the engineering leader. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, please take a moment to share a link on LinkedIn or Twitter. This simple act will help connect us to more engineering leaders and help us as an industry to collectively raise the bar. Thanks so much for your support. My name is Steve Westgarth and this is the engineering leader. Let me tell you a secret you also write bad code. If you disagree. You may as well switch off